Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Jake Meador's avatar

Thanks for writing, Nicholas.

One note: I framed the piece by saying I was thinking about life outside church contexts. So I have very different expectations w/r/t 'purity' in a church setting than I do in a city government or business. (I'd also have still different expectations w/r/t 'purity' in a session as opposed to a church, of course.)

The value on pluralism for me is basically a function of my understanding of the pervasiveness of sin and the nature of our ends as human beings. I think pluralism is just intractable and you can either accept it and seek to live wisely within it--as I think Keller modeled really well in NYC--or you can rage against it and eventually find yourself struggling with all the same kinds of second-degree separatism problems that the fundamentalists never figured out how to solve.

Book XIX of the City of God is big for me here as well just b/c it highlights how imperfect and limited our ability to realize the good actually is in this life. It's not that pursuit of the good does not matter or that civic life is unimportant. Far from it. However, the goods we pursue in civic life are not ultimate, but temporal and contingent ones. So the emphasis on pluralism for me is entailed in that recognition: In this life, sometimes the best and proper way to positively love neighbor is to patiently endure with them amidst differences, praying for them, extending care as we can, and trusting them to God. Eric Gregory's 'Politics and the Order of Love' is very good on all this. So this proposal is distinct both from the civic libertarianism one finds in, say, David French or Paul Miller (who mostly anchor their account of liberalism in negative or pragmatic concerns with abuse of power, not in a positive account of liberal virtues) but also is distinct from any sort of illiberal coercive religious regime, which is not necessarily what Wilson is after, but is certainly what the integralists want as well as what the Wolfe-style Christian nationalists want.

JAMES LANSBERRY's avatar

so this was helpful, and I hope Jake reads it. I still find the use of the 2x2 here to be unnecessarily wooden and reductionistic. I think all of us, at various times, value the various types of conversations you describe. I also didn't like the purity vs pluralism spectrum use AT ALL, which I think you're keyed into here in your response on some level if not the same.

Wilson, who I've always been uncomfortable with, has had some positive influence on me personally in small ways and I found his imagery occasionally very helpful (he analogized liturgy and dancing many years ago and it flipped a switch for me on the issues, for example). He's never been self-critical enough and like with any leader who gathers followers, they end up surrounded by sycophants which makes self critique even harder. Which is how he spiraled from sometimes helpful to awful really quickly.

I also am not pro-pluralism. I wonder maybe if Jake had used the more typical purity vs. peace (like in the PCA membership vows) as the spectrum it would have been more helpful? (thinking while typing here)

anway, this was helpful and a great follow up to the post at Mere Orthodoxy. Thanks for helping me to digest both.

1 more comment...

No posts

Ready for more?